with this strategy in a world where they're so closed to the changing social makeup of -- who is the educated work force in the united states anymore? mostly women, more and more diverse, and i you work at exxonmobil and go home to your family thanksgiving dinner and say i work at exxonmobil and half your cousins and your brothers look at you in disdain or worry, that's not a wing strategy over 30 years. so something has to give, i think. i'm not sure they think that, though. >> host: that's one of my questions, too. is that it seems to me that kind of, we are who we are and take it or leave it, don't care what everybody else thinks about that -- has that backfired on them? seems that could have been a force to cultivate more distrust and distaste, and help make them, as you say in the book, public enemy number one at pointness their history. >> guest: yeah. well, it's a great question and a kind of complicated one. i think one of my goals as a reporter was to try to understand as best i could and to think about what is it like to be so unpopular? does it matter? their default view, doesn't m